Monday, October 27, 2008

What has NATO done for us?

By Donald Sensing

To the point: it's time for the US to disengage from NATO.

NATO was founded to form a bulwark against Soviet invasion of western Europe in 1949. As the charter's Article 5 states,

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them ... will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith ... such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
So just what does this mean today? Pretty much nothing. Strictly interpreted, Article 5's provisions are not tripped by an attack on United States' interests outside North America. One must wonder whether an attack by someone against Guam, a non-North American, American territory, would trigger Article 5, but the question is actually moot since there is no imaginable threat to mount such an attack.

So: Who is there to attack either North America or Europe? There are really only two threats reasonably imaginable - Russia and Islamist terrorists. Let's consider them seriatim:

1. Russia.

The original threat for which NATO was founded, there's no chance that Russia either would or could invade western Europe now or in the far foreseeable future.

Certainly Russia's invasion of Georgia shows that Russia's militarism is alive and well, but the prospect of Russia invading western Europe is simple nitwittery. Russia, oil flush though it is, is not rich enough, militarily powerful enough, nor populous enough to extend a campaign that far or that long. Western Europe in aggregate is still more powerful than Russia militarily (on its own soil, defending its home territories) and is rich enough to outlast Russia in such a war. But the real bottom line is that Russia needs Europe peaceful and prosperous rather than wrecked and impoverished.

But what of the Baltic countries, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? Certainly Russia could invade them, and they are NATO members. They are also defensible by NATO to some minimal level because their sea approaches are a short trip from Germany's and Poland's northern ports.

I am trying to remember the good reasons that the Baltics were admitted into NATO, but memory fails me except to remember that there were no good reasons. (Review NATO's own assessment and see whether it's held up.) At the time, even Russia was being talked about as a potential NATO member of some kind, political membership if not part of the military alliance. See here, for example. It was then presumed membership would have a tamping effect on Russian militarism which would help ensure peace in our time. Russia has in fact been a "partner country" with NATO since 1997. (Some “partner.” As Dr. Phil would say, “How’s that worked out for us?”)

Ukraine? Not a NATO member, and Russia could easily march in. But Ukraine is hardly defensible by NATO. From the west, NATO forces would have a very long ground journey, across NATO-member Poland, then another 300 miles just to reach Ukraine's capital, Kiev. The logistics problem would be immense, especially for ammunition and spare parts.

Ukraine’s sea approach, from the Black Sea, has a natural choke point at the Bosporus straits. The sea approach to the Bosporus has its own choke points, the Dardanelles strait which empties into the Sea of Mamara, between the Aegean Sea and the Bosporus straits. Fortunately, Turkey is a NATO member whose forces have been focused for decades on keeping the sea lanes open. Of course, Russia has worked the opposite problems for decades, too. So there would almost certainly be a battle royal there between NATO and Russian air and naval forces.

Finally, Ukraine is a big country, almost 800 miles east to west, 233,000 square miles, and NATO's manpower commitment would have to be correspondingly large, probably too large for NATO's existing forces, even under mobilization, since substantial forces would need to be retained in Poland and points west to deter Russian moves in that direction.

As well, western Europe's standing forces are too few to offer substantial, long-lasting reinforcements to deployed units. Many of their regular brigades are permanently staffed by regulars at a fraction of full strength, with the rest (usually one-third or even more) of the troops being reservists whose readiness level is substantially lower. If you use your reserves to man up your regular battalions, who exactly is manning the reserves? In all, since the dissolution of the USSR, Europe's defense planning has been focused on economy rather than war readiness.

Don't count on NATO's new NATO Response Force (NRF), which consists of only 25,000 troops of all arms.

This includes a brigade-size land component with forced-entry capability; a naval task force including a carrier battle group, an amphibious task group and a surface action group; and an air component capable of 200 combat sorties a day.
A brigade-size ground force (5,000-6,000 soldiers) is barely speed bump size defending Ukraine or the Baltics. And 200 combat sorties per day would be exhausted before noon in mid-intensity operations.

Sarah Palin said in her Gibson interview that the US should push to admit both Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. I have two words: In. Sane. The idea that the United States should (or can) go to war to eject Russian forces therefrom is foolish in the extreme. A return of Russian occupation of Ukraine or the Baltic countries would be dreadful for the people of those countries. But it's hard to see what US national-security interest would make warring with Russia worth it. NATO's relations with Ukraine, very extensive since 1991, are almost exclusively political-commercial rather than military, or even political-military. Even the NATO Handbook admits tacitly that its goal is development of a market economy and human rights in Ukraine, rather than strengthening of NATO as a military alliance.

It may be argued that for the US to withdraw its NATO military membership would in fact invite Russian moves against Ukraine or the Baltics. I think Putin's government is a more calculating than that. Putin, et. al., surely realize that moving against Ukraine would not evoke military counter-moves from NATO, whether Ukraine is a NATO member or not. The reason is very simple: NATO nations simply do not have the military forces, nor strategic "throw," to make the counter. Simply getting tactically significant forces to the right places in Ukraine, then supplying them, would be an enormous challenge that could well be insurmountable. Only recently have Canada and the UK begun to fly strategic-range airlift, C-17s manufactured by the US. "Ironically," says commenter Adam, "Canada also leases Strategic Airlift capability from the Ukraine, which has a fairly extensive collection of late Soviet-era Antonov heavy lifters designed for strategic airlift." Even so, the great majority of such flying would fall to the US Air Force.

In summary: Russia is no military threat to western Europe. And though its threat to the Baltics and Ukraine is more realizable, there is not much NATO can do about it in the event, anyway.

2. Islamist terrorists.

Islamo-terrorists have already attacked both North America and Europe, it hardly bears pointing out. And what was NATO's response? Except for Canada and Britain, pretty much nothing. Even worse, near surrender: al Qaeda killed 191 Spanish train commuters in March 2004, demanded Spain's withdrawal of its forces from Iraq, and Spain rolled.

We'd also wish to ask just why Islamists would attack Europe in the first place (well, yes, they're terrorists) when if they just bide their time, most of western Europe will become substantially Muslim in just a few decades, and some nations majority Muslim.

What NATO has not done, even under Article 5, is actually fight al Qaeda or the Taliban (again, except for Britain and Canada). For example, Germany sent an entire special-forces detachment to Afghanistan. They literally never left their base camp for a whole year, then Germany brought them home. Except for Canada and Britain, this is typical of the NATO troops, paltry as they are, in Afghanistan. (NATO, qua NATO, had no involvement in Iraq.)

But let us imagine that al Qaeda mounts a truly devastating attack against a NATO capital city, killing thousands. Just how can NATO respond? It can't, certainly not for any response that would require self-lifting across strategic distances. The strategic transportation of NATO has always been oriented one way: US and Canadian forces flowing into Europe to defend it from the USSR, not forces flowing out of Europe to somewhere else in the world. NATO forces cannot go anywhere in the world in substantial force without the US Air Force or Navy carrying them.

Let us then ask the pointed question: Just how does continued NATO membership actually benefit that United States? I can think of only one way - forward stationing of US forces as a deployment point to locales farther east or toward the Middle East.

That's it. Is that worth the cost of national treasure and aggravation we have with the alliance, and which show no sign of abating?

There is another point that Mark Steyn touched on when discussing Sarah Palin's bright idea to bring Georgia into NATO. I can't find a link now, but Steyn pointed out is that Georgia's birth rate has tanked more than practically any other country in the world. In fact, by 2050 there will be only 100,000 Georgian women of childbearing age, if current trends continue. So, he said, if Georgians won't have children to grow up to defend Georgia, why should Americans have children to grow up to defend Georgia? I can't think of any good reason.

And the same question can be asked of every other European NATO member, except perhaps Britain and France. The birth rates of Germany, Spain, Italy and every other NATO country except Turkey are below the stable replacement rate of 2.1 average births per woman, most far below. Italy’s rate is 1.23 births per woman , for example, meaning that Italy’s population could shrink by one-third by mid-century. (Turkey’s birth rate is about twice as high as Italy's.)

Again the question for NATO’s countries: if you will not have enough children to preserve your country, why should the US make up your deficit?

I think the United States should reassess whether the NATO alliance really is serving American interests. I don't think it is, and I don't think it will do better in years to come. Though we must stay politically engaged, I think we'd be better off withdrawing from the military alliance, and work toward building an Anglosphere military alliance in its stead.

Update: Yes, I titled the post having in mind Monty Pythons sketch from Life of Brian, in which some ancient Judeans ask, "What has Rome done for us?" Unlike them, however, we have no important, affirmative answers to the question of my post.

Comments welcome, moderation is on. I would be eager to entertain well-reasoned arguments to the contrary.

31 comments:

Anonymous said...

Sorry, I don't write to disagree with your premise.
But I wonder about one thing. By default, doesn't it seem like Europe is falling under the influence of Russia? They might be stronger militarily on paper, but without the US to give them backbone why would they not just roll over if Russia said "boo"? I don't care so much about WestEuro states, but giving visible support to Poland/Georgia/Baltics might help them hang together and provide resistance. If we just let it slide, EurAsia may come sooner than we think.

tim maguire said...

NATO was founded to counter the Soviet Union. When the USSR collapsed, NATO should have declared victory and gone home. Instead, they've casted about for new missions and new reasons to exist. This effort to supplant the anti-Soviet framework onto...whatever, is dangerous and sometimes counterproductive.

Better to start from scratch with something designed to counter the current threats.

mrkwong said...

The idea that NATO is in fact a millstone around our neck is a valid one. The Germans in particular seem quite happy to become a subsidiary of the Russian oligarchy.

I would note, howevber, that both Presidential candidates and not just Sarah Palin have a stated position of advocating NATO membership (of whatever flavor) for Georgia and Ukraine.

One could say that Mr Obama tends to say a lot of things (energy exploration, foreign policy in general, etc.) that his most fervent supporters (and a lot of other folks) expect him to back down on very quickly once he no longer needs to pretend he's a centrist, but it is at this point the Democrat candidate's stated position.

dirc said...

I agree: non-English-speaking NATO has done little for us. So let's assume we withdraw from the military part of the alliance. What do you think will happen next?

Where will the former Warsaw Pact nations turn for protection from Russia? Or will it be OK with us if they are once again dominated by Russia?

A new, separate military alliance with the Eastern Europeans to keep them from Russia's embrace would have obvious logistical problems. We would not be able to move troops and supplies to them in time of war without the permission of the Germany. Are there other alternatives?

I think withdrawing from NATO would be tantamount to returning Poland, Romania, Hungary, etc. to Russia. It is hard to imagine that as a good thing.

Travis B said...

I agree with most of what you are saying here, but I do think you overestimate the British as being in any way different than your typical European. The Royal Navy is I believe, now smaller than the French navy and the political leadership of the United Kingdom is hardly more courageous than it’s European counterparts.

I think the US must start asking some fundamental questions as to whom it sees as a real future adversary, rather than just anklebiters. China springs to mind most readily, and to a lesser extent India, and I fail to see how Britain could help the US in such a circumstance. Russia as a military ally has much more to recommend it, as they actually have a military, which too many Europeans don’t. We have common interests with regards to Islamic aggression as well.

The other point would be to understand that the threats that do emerge would not likely be the sort of threat to which we can cheaply apply military power to achieve victory. The collapse of Mexico into a narco-state, or a radical Chavez style dictatorship is one such possibility. An American expeditionary force could easily replace the man who sits the presidency in Mexico city, but the price politically, domestically, and financially would be heavy and would in all likelihood accomplish little in such a situation.

Proxy and subnational groups are increasingly fighting wars, and we in the west need to find a means of winning such conflicts. Morocco for example took the Western Sahara from Spain by sending 350,000 civilians to occupy the country. The Spanish could open fire on civilians or give it up. They gave up. The Palestinians use young boys to attack Israeli troops in much the same way. Open fire and be a monster or give us what we want!

Indonesia could easily follow this example. If they were to send a similar fraction of their population into Australia it would amount to 5-15 million people. How do we as a military alliance deal with this sort of tactic? The ethnic cleansing that we increasingly see has much to do with creating facts on the ground. Spain had no answer for it in 1975. Do we?

TMLutas said...

Here's one thing that the post Soviet NATO has accomplished, a non-nuclear Poland and Romania (among others). Both countries could create and/or buy enough of a nuclear deterrent to give a resurgent Russian bear pause. They have not needed to because the path to NATO was open and they figured out that participating in NATO was a superior option. US withdrawal from NATO would radically change the strategic calculus for all the new NATO countries.

Their conventional militaries are not large enough to dissuade an invasion but just a few nuclear warheads would do the trick nicely by making them too expensive to digest.

Max said...

Military alliances have never been in the short-term interests of the US, and that includes NATO. However, these alliances serve long-term interests. During the Cold War it was critical to stop the second-largest industrial base in the world from falling into communist hands. It's equally critical that Europe doesn't surrender to Islamists in the same way, and keeping NATO has as many political benefits as it does purely military short-term ones. Namely, it creates a sense of solidarity between Europe and North America, and while that solidarity may be paper-thin and mostly worthless in practical terms, in psychological terms it's vastly important. The alternative is to have a Europe that is not just hostile to the US in forums like the UN and IMF, but that is fragmented and with hostility between states in Europe. That makes it all the easier for the Russians to once again dominate Eastern Europe and the Islamists to dominate political discourse on the continent. So, NATO is a paper tiger but the facade is still better than the alternatives.

Adam said...

Note that both Canada and the UK operate Strategic Airlift aircraft (C-17's in both cases, recently acquired primarily to support operations in the Middle East and Asia).

Ironically, Canada also leases Strategic Airlift capability from the Ukraine, which has a fairly extensive collection of late Soviet-era Antonov heavy lifters designed for Strategic Airlift.

mariner said...

NATO wasn't set up to do for us; it was set up so we could do for Europe.



You may well be right that it has outlived its usefulness.

Anonymous said...

Great points.

Would you agree that, over the long run, security guarantees, like welfare, tend to infantilize the recipients while providing only a pantomime of actual security? Seems that when nations - like people - live under the blanket of someone else's protection it allows them to indulge in the most wanton and absurd fantasies. Europe case in point.

Meanwhile, the few serious people in Europe cooperate closely with America on Islamist terrorism issues, or appear to anyway, at least with information-sharing. But that begs the question: does NATO as presently constituted need to continue if Europe is already doing just about all it can do (or is willing to do) on the most serious present threat?

Anonymous said...

All me to play devil's advocate. I agree in principle with your analysis, but preserving NATO as a framework for action and reference point for diplomatic strategies seems worthwhile to me at this point.

The overriding reason is that to read the history of Russia and China and their satellites through the 20th century one comes to the following question, I think: so after being implacably hostile gigantic concentration-camp states up to only 20 years ago, what exactly are they now? Clearly they are not Jeffersonian democracies, nor Anglo-American shopkeeper nations. What exactly are they, especially after decades of the most voracious cultural annihilation? What is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization? Are analysts really satisfied with the conclusion that they (Russia, China, Iran) are only engaged in a sort of mutually hostile play-acting out in central Asia?

And what of the threat of espionage? I've read many times that "espionage did not have a decisive effect on the course of the Cold War" - but anyone who comes innocently to the subject and reads the most scholarly stuff available knows that the opposite is almost certainly true. Is it not possible that these nations - particularly China - know that they can maintain their regimes with only a modicum of assistance to their populations, present a more "human face," and yet pursue subversion through the vast intelligence operations at their disposal? This whole expectation of revolution unless China keeps growing at a rate of 10%+ a year sounds like complete Hegelian poppycock: revolutions are started by cliques of effective revolutionaries; they are not like meteorological events.

Remember, the enemy nations are not concerned with elections; they do not have hostile indigenous media. Look at Russia's own coverage of their recent Georgia war. I know Russians; this is exactly what they believe, or else they are so cynical they believe nothing and that everyone is trying to screw them. But cynics are completely ineffective, politically. It seems to me these countries are increasingly populated by either cynical-impotents or true believers of an intense blood&soil type enthusiasm for their own countries even more impervious to criticism than America's supposedly fascistic inability to see her own mistakes and crimes.

But most significantly, these enemies can afford to think in strategies which are expected to come to fruition in decades, not 4 year election cycles. They are not liberal democracies, and don't pursue the goal of creating liberal democracies anywhere else. Whereas in our country it will make a significant difference whether Obama or McCain is elected, in China does it really matter who the "president" is? Obviously it does not matter who the president of Russia is; and the president of Iran is just the public face of the Guardian Council. Clearly these countries pursue collective leadership, and they do it together to some uncomfortable degree or other. Personally I would not be surprised if they were behind the dramatic peak in Islamic terrorism which, forgive me, I cannot entirely credit to a society that can do pretty much nothing right.

And finally, once the nations of Western Europe and the United States were joined by ethnic culture, the artifacts of which were live and strong and part of individuals' and families' everyday mental and emotional furniture. Today that is not the case: America's extremely shallow pop culture dominates and is resented, while English and French and German and Italian and other cultures cannibalize their native cultures in the name of social justice & etc. Might there not come a time in the near-ish future where only such "international laws" as the NATO treaty will remind the Euro-American public of their historic relationship?

In any case, in rebuttal I would simply say to you that this notion that we are living at a time where our only real enemy is ourself is to misunderstand the nature of the threats we face. Remember, for example: Russia and China have "always" been poor miserable places to live in. And yet, here we are, no?

9 said...

I believe the old Churchill quote is something along the lines of "The only thing worse than fighting with allies is having no allies." Whether one subscribes to the "Long War" concept or the convergence of interests due to globalization, the unfortunate fact is we need allies and for now, NATO is our best source.

Sure, there are the "coalitions of the willing" that are even WORSE. Sure, dealing with NATO is like wading through molasses in winter time. But it is a source for at least some forces that actually can--and actually DO--take action.

Examples, you ask? OK. First, did the USSR ever invade or attack Europe? Not that I recall. Second, Air War Over Serbia--there were more than just US and GBR jets dropping bombs; the Dutch were there, as were the Italians, and several others--and they actually flew real, genuine, combat missions that were effective. As good as the US? No, but every DMPI served by an ally meant 1 less target we would have to do.

Third--and you'll have a field day on this one--AFG is NOT just about the moral weakness of DEU; true, it's been an "economy of force" war, but keep in mind that NATO ISAF was intended to be what its name says; an Internation SECURITY Assistance Force. When NATO "took over" AFG, none of the decision makers ever anticipated the Taliban resurgence nor the invasion of Iraq. Of course, had NATO not gone into AFG, we probably could not have gone into Iraq (which actually COULD be a good argument for having pulled out of NATO long ago! LOL).

In any event, we are where we are, and many of the Baltic nations you imply to be "useless" have actually done much more than you apparently know. Many of these nations man PRT's, OMLT's, and even SOF.

This is not to say NATO shouldn't have done--and be doing--much, much more. The point is that we "Anglophiles" do not have enough money or troops or WILLINGNESS to go it alone. And the sad fact is we can't do it alone. Is it hard and going to keep being hard? Yes. Is it worth it? I think so; even if all you get is guys to guard the FOB and do 10km "presence patrols" so we can go hunt bad guys or train AFG Security Forces, that guard duty or patrol means more US guys are free to do something with.

fustian said...

I always thought that the big benefit of NATO was that it was a kind of "gun control" for Europeans. Over the centuries, they have shown over and over again that they cannot be trusted with armies.

Donald Sensing said...

Adam, thanks for the correction. I've corrected the post with attribution to you.

Donald Sensing said...

Great commentary, folks! Thanks!

Andy Johnson said...

NATO is our "beard". It allows us to enter the fray... Without NATO we have no legal reason to or responsibility to act. The UN can block our responses and the world would make us the outlaw. NATO has evolved from a military treaty to an economic bloc. Our NATO allies share military training, co-ordination and save money. They are also a place to source weapons for US forces and to sell US arms.

Bringing in Ukraine and Georgia would expand our chessboard. We would have some measure of control and influence over their forces. We would also be able to block Russian Imperialism from starting.

The US cannot retreat behind our oceans and build walls along the seashore. We must remain active and engaged in the world. We are viewed as the only "honest broker" in a world of deception and deceit. We are also viewed as slightly untrustworthy due to political winds from Washington....

NATO is our pathway to action. Should we choose to act. This potential makes our adversaries hesitate and think twice...

Russian actions in Cuba and Venezuela will need to be met. Does our new President support the Monroe Doctrine? can we work with the Latin American countries...

NATO is our balancing card against Russian encroachment. SEATO is our card against Chinese Imperial designs...

No NATO or SEATO and we sit waiting to be surrounded and attacked...

There are bad guys loose in the world. What would you do to stop them-?

Anthony said...

Yes there are bad guys loose in the world. That has little to do with NATO. All NATO does is subsidize the European welfare state.

The GDP of the EU is something like 12X the size of Russia. The EU's population is something like 2 1/2 times that of Russia, and that is without Ukraine and Georgia thrown in to teh European side.

It would be far better policy to reintegrate Russia into Europe rather than try and keep Russia outside.

As for what President Obama will do, he has called for Georgia to join NATO. And his main European advisor is Zibignew Brezinski, who equated Putin with Hitler.

It is time for us to leave NATO. Let the Europeans then decide who they add to it.

Anonymous said...

The purpose of NATO is and was to "keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down."

What has changed? A disbandment of NATO would take away the external security guarantee that has allowed the EU to become the successful organization that it is. No laughs, it is the more successful democratic expansion the world has seen. The US committment has made that possible. Without it the old competitive instincts of Europe will likely come back and that will effect US interests big time. Your piece sounds like an argument for no more expansion, not disbandment.

Anonymous said...

No country can fight at our side for technical or political reasons. No one will come to our aid in time of need; they can't even help themselves.

Call the question: NATO nations either send us money in exchange for our protective umbrella or dissolve.

mockmook said...

There may be a benefit from withdrawal.

Europe "grows up" a little; increases their defenses, and we end up with a net gain in Western military strength.

Withdrawal from NATO doesn't mean we can't still ally when appropriate.

Don51 said...

Given the combined population of Europe and its GDP is greater than the United States, NATO is military welfare for the first world.

If we are willing nationally to kick our own able bodied people off of welfare, shouldn't that principle apply internationally?

Joseph Somsel said...

One assumption underlying the current NATO treaty is that Germans will die fighting for Polish freedoms.

Do the Poles trust in that premise?

If we presume some sense of history on the part of the Polish government, I'd expect them to be busy building nuclear weapon infrastructure.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/sticking_it_to_gazprom.html

That said, NATO keeps Europeans and Americans together in a formal security structure. Government policies can be changed almost overnight by force of events. There can certainly be scenarios where Europeans re-arm with alacrity.

Craig said...

Just how does continued NATO membership actually benefit that United States? I can think of only one way - forward stationing of US forces as a deployment point to locales farther east or toward the Middle East.

I think this answers the question. Given the circumstances at the time NATO was created I think this was the primary reason for NATO. NATO was never about other nations coming to the defense of the US. Post WWII, Europe was nearly incapable of such action. While the enemy of the time was the USSR, the forward stationing of US forces seems vital if you accept the premise that Islamic terrorist are the primary threat and Europe in unable or unwilling to do anything about it. Withdrawing from NATO would makes it more difficult for the the US to act militarily abroad to defend its interests.

The Sanity Inspector said...

Gotta disagree. "Pretty much nothing" does not include for example the Dutch, who are flying close air support and engaging in combat with the Taliban. You can even see video footage of their actions on LiveLeak. There are war dead from a number of European nationalities in the WOT. They may be just a patch on our casualties, but they aren't nothing.

Anonymous said...

President Obama may find himself a few troops short of an army to fulfill his pipe dreams.

Already I have read of a possible US military draft being reinstated, and I can see why: we have a strong military because enough Americans from Palin-esque small towns and McCain-like families have been taught that it's their duty to serve America simply because they love America.

How many Obamunists are willing to say, "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country?"

When Obama succeeds in metrosexualizing us into an extension of the EU, military service will dry up as it has there.

Hello, war. Hello, draft. It's happened with each "peace" Democrat we've elected since 1900: run on "peace" then kill hundreds of thousands of Americans in war.

Anonymous said...

I thought the comment about gun control for Europe was near spot on.
During the last century, 3 terrible world wide conflicts grew out of Europe. NATO seems to be one of the best tools for giving us some kind of leverage over this ignition point.
It is not perfect or fair, but it may be the best we can do.

MEC2 said...

Several good comments, but to an unaddressed point - not only does membership for, say, Ukraine, provide an enormous disincentive for Russia to act militarily, it doesn't argue logistically for NATO to be able to bring to bear ground forces to defeat the Red Army at their doorstep. Hypothetically, if such an event occurred, NATO intervention would be heavily weighted with air assets in theatre - far less logistically difficult, and an arena with an enormous mismatch in NATO's favor - as well as freedom to act against Russia out of theater - Russia's a country too large to defend itself saliently. Infrastructure in Russia can be hit at will by US air and cruise missile assets.

NATO does not need to try and defeat Russia on the ground next to it's home turf, rather make the tit for tat costs of aggression far too grievous to offset any gains Russia may hope to achieve. Increase the risk to exceed any reward.

James R. Rummel said...

Sorry, but I'm afraid you are wrong. At least in part.

One of my undergraduate professors at OSU was Allan R. Millett, who served in the US Marines for over thirty years before devoting himself to military history. I remember distinctly how he would relate a well known joke told by career military men in the 1950's and 1960's.

"NATO was formed to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down!"

Most European nations have the industrial base and technological know how to build up their own military to a credible threat within a decade, as long as they are willing to make the economic sacrifices necessary.

Toss in nuclear weapons, which would hardly be a problem to build even if the nation in question doesn't have a nuclear arsenal of their own at this time. After all, the US managed to build the first and only nuclear bombs used on the battlefield using 1940's tech.

This wouldn't mean anything, except for something you yourself admitted in your original post....

"We'd also wish to ask just why Islamists would attack Europe in the first place (well, yes, they're terrorists) when if they just bide their time, most of western Europe will become substantially Muslim in just a few decades, and some nations majority Muslim."

A few of the people who have left comments here have pointed out that the presence of NATO has allowed the Europeans to let their military might rot on the vine, secure in the knowledge that the US will defend them if need be.

And yet you want to remove that crutch. What would that do except encourage these nations to revitalize their militaries through a sense of unease? And just a few decades short of them becoming majority Muslim?

NATO has evolved into an organization that does more than just keep the Germans down, it emasculates all of Europe. This might not be a good thing now, but if current trends hold it certainly will be in 20 years.

James

Anonymous said...

So what was the reason we let Germany and France into NATO? To protect them from Soviet aggression. So what is the difference between Germany France and the Ukraine and Baltic countries?

The real point is we should only have treaties with allies. Germany and France are not allies. They are at best occassional cobilligerents.

The only reason Germany is safe is because they have new free democracies between them and the Obama communist nation..., I mean Russia.

We should pull out of NATO and only make treaties with countries that stand with us against facism.

Of course with the Democrats poised to take over their Amerika, we will be facists also!

Donald Sensing said...

So are you saying that Obama is a commie but the Dems are fascists?

Make up your mind!

Travis B said...

Bolsheviks; faction of the Marxist Russian Social Democratic Labour Party (RSDLP)

Fascists; National Socialist German Workers' Party

Both are socialist labour parties with totalitarian methodology and former communists made up a large part of the later NSDAP (Nazi) party.

The NSDAP used race as a unifying factor and the Bolsheviks used class as a unifying factor. The real differences beyond that are minor.

Is China currently Fascist or Communist? An argument could be made for either.